What is an "Advantage Player"?

[Roadtrip]

What is your definition of an "Advantage Player" ?

Is it "OK" for someone, who claims they are an "Advantage Player", to "play" games where they obviously do not have an advantage or "break even EV" over the HA? 

Can a player be both?

Is that hypocrisy ?

[KarenTN]

As far as it is OK,   a person is free to play whatever casino games they want and call themselves whatever they want.   

If I hit a Royal playing 7/5 DDB,  and say "hey,  I won,  I am an advantage player!!"  That should be of no concern to you.   

However,   if I had some sort of audience of really gullible people and was shouting to the rooftops that playing 7/5 DDB gives you an advantage and look,  see,  I hit a royal!   Then,  I would be either stupid or an asshole.  or both.   

Not sure what you mean by OK though.   I don't really think the pitchforks and torches should be brought out in either case.     

[DJ Teddy Bear]

Is it OK?

Well, it really depends upon the context. But I feel that to do anything other than to nod and ignore would be leading to an argument.

[tom.mckenzie]

Well, I certainly don't call myself an advantage player the way some people do. I play 9/6 JOB, so I know I"m going to lose. I generally gamble just enough to keep the free offers coming in.

So last year, my losses for the year averaged at around $50/day. For that, I got around 20 free nights at hotels, a boatload of free meals, and all the beer I could drink.

You tell me who has the advantage...

[knagl]

I don't consider myself to be an advantage player like the Bob Dancer's of the world, but I consider myself to be an educated gambler.  I think most of the folks here fall into that category -- at least we know better, even if we throw some money into the slot machines.  Every time I go to the casino I see some of the most clueless people I've ever seen anywhere.  I like to think that I at least have a better grasp of the odds I'm up against.

[champster]

I don't consider myself to be an advantage player like the Bob Dancer's of the world, but I consider myself to be an educated gambler.  I think most of the folks here fall into that category -- at least we know better, even if we throw some money into the slot machines.  Every time I go to the casino I see some of the most clueless people I've ever seen anywhere.  I like to think that I at least have a better grasp of the odds I'm up against.

+1!!

[fremont4ever]

What is your definition of an "Advantage Player" ?

Is it "OK" for someone, who claims they are an "Advantage Player", to "play" games where they obviously do not have an advantage or "break even EV" over the HA? 

Can a player be both?

Is that hypocrisy ?

My definition of advantage player is someone who has a proveable edge over the house.  This can include stuff like free rooms and food, so in theory you could get enough stuff to offset the most horrific games.  An advantage player is certainly welcome to play a game where they don't have an edge, either because they expect to gain a bigger advantage later, or because they like it and don't care about the money they throw away.

[bardolator]

Tom's outcome and method of measuring are good enough for me to declare him to be an advantage player. However, "advantage" is hard to measure, particularly because most perks are subjective and most people are notoriously unreliable record keepers.

Gambling should be fun. Some people gamble more than what is fun for them just to make a level. This costs time and adds stress to what is supposed to be a vacation. To me, that should figure in as a big negative.

A free room is a definite advantage yet it is hard to assign a value to it. Same for food and beverage perks. My list of advantages would not include VIP check-in and line cutting, because I dislike such things when others receive them and feel a bit guilty when I receive them. Gift baskets and other freebies have virtually no value. Free lounges are a gray area, as are room upgrades. Free shows would count if a player would have been willing to pay for them, but only for the cost of tickets a player would actually have bought, not the inflated price tag on front row seats reserved for players. The list goes on and on.

My personal measuring stick must also include the fact that I hate to play games with too big a house edge. That is why I have not gambled at Caesars Palace for a long time, even though it used to be my favorite casino.

Players can gain an advantage without alienating hosts because there is a difference between the cost of a perk and its value to the guest.

Does a player determine his or her advantage or disadvantage according to the bottom line on a particular trip? No. It has to be theoretical, the same method the house uses. Theoretically, I am an advantage player. According to the bottom line, not so much.

[danfed]

Depends on context and what has legit value as a perk.

When living in Vegas, getting room offers had no real value. Yes, we would use them for a change of scenery or to stay in a nice suite for something different but they didn't have necessary value. As a tourist, the rooms now have value.

F & B on the other hand did (and still does). You gotta eat somewhere, right? OTOH, we wound up paying more in tips than what it would cost to buy groceries and eat at home or dine out of pocket in more modest surroundings.

In my mind, there is a difference between an AP & an educated player. However, no one says you have to be one or the other.

If you're an AP, you look at things a bit differently. Gambling isn't as much about entertainment and more about making money. There are plenty of $25+/hr. opportunities in LV but does one want to play at the same place on the same game everyday?

You also need to look at the complete package and assess the value of CB, BB, prizes, drawings, tournaments along with any RFB considerations to determine if theo warrants the risk.

In 12/12, I chose to do DIAD strictly for advantage purposes. The rooms would have real value to me in places like Joliet and NOLA. I value these at $60/nt. as I know that's what I'd pay for a 3 1/2-4 star hotel in these places. I know that I was playing a machine where my theo loss was $138. My actual loss was $885. Since that time I've used 5 free nights and have 4 more booked from now until early March. So, I've already gotten $540 of my $885 back. The goal for me is to get more than I gave and therefore this was pursued on the basis of being an advantage play.

Make no mistake about it, advantage play is work and maximizing return is the mantra. It can be done as we did it for +/- 2 years. You definitely won't get rich but it's a $40k/yr. gig pretty easily if you work at it.

Dan

[monk]

Simply any player who only plays when they have an advantage or they know over the life of the session they will have an overall advantage.

[pjstroh]

Who does the advantage player have an advantage over?  The House?  Not likely unless he can successfully count cards at blackjack...or find Video Poker / comp programs that get you over 100%.    The latter is the only true advantage players left that you might find in any significant number.

My defintiion of "advantage player" is probably more accurately described as "educated player".  Attributes include:
- understanding 3/2 Blackjack is better than 6/5
- the odds bet in craps massively dilutes the house advantage
- Seeking out single zero roulette wheels
- what table games /  table bets are for suckers.
- understanding the paytables on VP
- does their homework to find promotions / multiple slot points
- uses gambling coupons

I would describe myself as someone who possesses all of these attributes - and I would say that gives me an "advantage" over John Q Toursit who is in the casino for the first time.. I dont think it gives me an "advantage" over the house as I typically come home with less money than I went out there with  

[The Crazy Brazilian]

- understanding 3/2 Blackjack is better than 6/5

Not necessarily... Once, I saw a guy spreading 10/500 at the Palms - with this kind of spread in a single deck game he probably had an edge north of 2%, even in a 6:5 game. Try spreading 10/50 in any 3:2 game and very shortly they will show you the door.

[monk]

Last time I played blackjack at the LVC (about 4 years ago) I spread a lousy $5 to $25 and they showed me the pit boss right at my side watching everything I did. I finally left as it was uncomfortable. Never did I play blackjack here or at the sister property (Plaza) again.  But Mario is absolutely right you can gain an advantage by bet spreading or adjusting your strategy to the count or both which is the best of course.  I didn't think anyone wanted examples but just the definition of an advantage player.  I once knew about a triple play DDB machine at Sams Town with a 10/6 +100% payout. Only triple play VP DDB machine I ever saw with that payout.  It is now gone but lasted there almost 2 years I would say.  This was ALSO in the bank where the Royals were all PROGRESSIVE to add even more to the payout.  

[monk]

was not a good topic to post about

[bardolator]

Reading my previous post followed by danfed's post accentuates the difficulty in defining the term. I am a tourist, so I must define "advantage player" as seen by a tourist. Danfed describes gambling as a part-time job for a local resident, a job which includes "earning" vacations elsewhere. Some of the rules are quite different between the two of us.

PJ's post and others reveal ways a smart player can do better than the run of ordinary gamblers. That can reduce one's disadvantage but may not be enough to provide an actual advantage. 

I am not a craps player, but I did play once with a young friend who enjoys the game. He likes to play sucker bets and does not always take full odds. Betting similar amounts in a session when the dice were running hot, I won over twice as much money as he did. Even though I am ahead lifetime at craps because of that one lucky session, craps is not an advantage game, and losing less than another player loses is not what I would call being an advantage player. That has to be measured against the house, not against other players.

Perhaps a simple rule of thumb would be to compare the bottom line: the cost of a Vegas vacation with no gambling at all to that of the same Vegas vacation which includes gambling. If the gambling vacation costs less (theoretically speaking), a player has an advantage.